Episode 11: Medical Advisor to Law & Order Speaks on “AIDS Denialism”
December 6th, 2008

Dr. Jocelyn Dee is an AIDS specialist at USC’s Rand Schrader Clinic where poor, uneducated, uninsured, often illiterate, sometimes homeless, and frequently drug addicted HIV positives can receive medical care regardless of ability to pay. She also serves as an advisor for fictional television programs that feature real life medical issues in their story lines. It was in this advisory capacity that Dr. Dee worked on the recent Law & Order SVU episode, “Retro,” which took on the topic of “AIDS denialism.” According to Dr. Dee, a combination of ignorance of biomedical facts about AIDS and guilt over testing HIV positive is usually at the root of her patients’ denial, a problem she says she deals with “on a daily basis.” In a lively and informative conversation, our hosts tread carefully through a minefield of remarks about “AIDS denialism”–including the need for psychiatric evaluation of the more seriously afflicted–with an obviously smart and sincere doctor who has no idea she’s talking to “those people.” The discussion gets really interesting when our hosts ask about the difference between ignorance, guilt and educated inquiry; the specific qualities that make someone a “denialist,” and when Christine reads Dr. Dee an official synopsis of the Law & Order program that acknowledges “Retro” was based on her life.

Dr. Dee’s meeting with the Law & Order writers was sponsored by “Hollywood, Health & Society” which is sponsored by the CDC and others to help ensure that television shows and movies toe the party line on health issues, also known as ‘responsible programming’.

The show kicks off with news items including, “Man Loses Penis Power Over Septrin,” microchipping HIV positives in Indonesia, a new announcement of the old claim that “one million Americans are HIV positive and 20% [still] don’t know it”, and revelations from a recent LA County epidemiology survey on AIDS that show more than half of all AIDS diagnoses are given to people with no clinical illness.

“Episode 11: Medical Advisor to Law & Order Speaks on “AIDS Denialism”” comments…
  1. David says:

    Yogurt, Bananas and Denialism
    A Summary of Law & Order SUV’s “Retro” from
    http://beesight.com/law_and_order/law-and-order-svu-season-10-episode-5-recap-and-review-retro.html

    [With Comments Inserted by Christine Maggiore]

    Episode Summary: Law & Order SVU “Retro”

    Elliot and Olivia are called to find the parents of “an HIV infected” infant that was turned in to the police. The baby was brought to the hospital and almost died. The baby was turned in by Marong, a cab driver who says that the mother left the baby in his car.

    Elliot looks at the cab’s video camera and finds that the last person in the vehicle before Marong turned in the baby was a man. Elliot asks Marong where is the footage of the mother and he says that he turned off the camera to take a fare without running the meter. Marong is brought to station to give a better description of the mother.

    Olivia and Elliot discover that the baby belongs to a Joanne Suarez, a woman who is now in prison. They visit her to ask about the baby. Suarez tells the detectives that she lied to the government about the baby because she did not want them to take her away.

    [Joanne does not want the government to take her baby but then leaves the baby with neighbors who stick the child in cab. This seems like a a not so subtle way of suggesting an HIV positive mom not following rules is bad, stupid and irresponsible, along with anyone from Gambia who might have questions about toxic drug treatments.]

    They tell her that her baby and her have HIV. She is surprised at the news and asks them how they found out. They tell her that the baby was turned in by a cabbie. She says that she left her baby with her down stairs neighbor who said she would take care of her.

    Olivia and Elliot go to the neighbor’s house and find that the woman that was caring for Joanne’s baby is Marong’s wife. They bring them to the station for questioning.

    The couple tells the police that they cared for the baby, but she got sicker and sicker. The wife says that she recognized the symptoms as the same as the ones that her sister had in Gambia. The Marongs say that AIDS medicines are poison. She says that the President of Gambia told the nation that people that are sick like her sister should be treated with a recipe containing bananas and other ingredients. They tell the detectives that they went on the internet and found a doctor who prescribes similar therapy. [The sort of practitioner who our guest Dr. Dee warns against but can’t quite describe or name, the ones that advertise “denialism” and offer alternative banana therapy for AIDS].

    Elliot and Olivia meet with Gideon Hutton, the doctor that was originally treating the baby. Hutton tells them that he gave the baby yogurt for her sickness. He says that she was showing symptoms of thrush and that the Marongs should have returned for the baby to receive anti-fungal medication. He tells them that he does not believe in HIV medicine.

    [Doctor Gideon Hutton is an utterly ridiculous caricature of Professor Peter Duesberg mixed with an idiotic version my daughter’s pediatrician, Dr. Paul Fleiss, who AIDS Inc would have loved to see go to jail, like Hutton does in this fantasy version of my not life.]

    Back at the station, Detective Munch loads up Hutton’s website. The website states that the AIDS medicine will kill the patients. [Actually, it’s the black box warnings in the medicines’ literature that state how the drugs can harm and kill.] It also states that AIDS medicines are only there to profit the doctors and drug companies. [The required “conspiracy theorist” angle…how original, how compelling.] The team believes that Hutton is an AIDS denier. [What makes them believe this when he is apparently “treating AIDS?” How can someone treat AIDS and deny AIDS at the same time? What the heck is “an AIDS denier” anyway? Dr. Dee certainly wasn’t letting on if she knew…] The team becomes determined to put Hutton out of business.

    ADA Kim Greyleck knows that the doctor’s medical records are protected and decides to use the media to take Hutton down. [This is the closest thing to reality in the whole stupid program, the use of the media to harm my and my doctor’s reputations. When you can’t fight with the facts, wage a PR campaign.] She calls a press conference and informs the public that the authorities have set up a confidential tip line set up to receive any reports of people that are being treated by Hutton and want help.

    Later, Hutton arrives at the station with his attorney. He tells the staff that the press conference is full of libel. The lawyer tells the police that she wants a public apology or there will be a lawsuit.
    Munch tells the rest of the team that the tip line received a call about a girl, named Lisa Ross, who was not given treatment for AIDS. [In real life, my daughter Eliza did not have “AIDS,” and in fact was remarkably healthy, especially if one goes by the concept that vaccines are necessary to protect children from “normal” diseases since she had no vaccinations and yet did not suffer from the diseases against which kids are given vaccines or from other typical childhood illness. The notion perpetuated in this TV show, that Eliza was hidden away from public scrutiny, is a retarded theory that never went anywhere in real life because from the time she was just a few weeks old, Eliza was always around a lot of people. She literally grew up in the presence of more than two dozen teachers, all of whom are mandated reporters of abuse and neglect. They saw Eliza between five and 10 times per week, depending on the week, and no one ever called any “tip line.” In fact, police failed to find anyone among Eliza’s many teachers and parents and classmates and babysitters and play-date friends who saw her illl.] Elliot and Olivia decide to visit the Ross residence. They knock on the door and ask a boy who answers the door if they can speak to Lisa. The boy tells them that Lisa is dead.

    The team enters the house and speaks to Lisa’s mother, Susan. Susan tells them that Lisa died a few months back from an allergic reaction to penicillin given by Dr. Hutton. She says that after her dose, she had trouble breathing. Hutton gave her adrenalin and shocked her heart, but she still died. Susan tells them that Lisa was healthy until she got a cold. [This part is particularly rich in irony–Eliza went into cardiac arrest without having had “trouble breathing” and died at a hospital of no known cause. She was sent to the coroner for an autopsy, and the autopsy found no illness or traumatic injury. In fact, the coroner’s office had no clue what happened. But after they discovered who I was many weeks later, they apparently decided to give my daughter AIDS despite a resounding lack of biomedical evidence to support that conclusion. Apparently, at least here in LA County, the only evidence necessary to claim a cause of death by a coroner is the authority of the office of coroner.]

    Elliot and Olivia return to the station to examine the records that Susan provided for them. They find that Lisa’s body was never looked at by any medical examiner and that Hutton signed the death certificate. [In the TV version of my supposed life, it’s my doctor that’s an evil liar and the coroner that’s a good and honest person, a hideous role reversal. The coroner in our case has been caught misrepresenting evidence in so many cases it’s become difficult to keep count. Just before our daughter died, he wrongly–and some would contend, maliciously–accused a young Latino couple of starving one of their two children to death but then eventually admitted he was wrong…but only after they were arrested, thrown in jail and lost their surviving son to foster care for close to a year.] They find that Susan’s husband died recently. [In all three TV shows that have put forth some goofy version of my life, they always “disappear” my husband. Apparently the fact that he’s smart and cool and remains HIV negative after 12 years of normal relations doesn’t help the plot line] They also learn that Susan was a teacher, but now is unemployed. By listening to the anonymous phonecall, they figure that the person who placed the call is a teacher. [Once again, the story uses the opposite of reality: a teacher phones in the “tip.”]

    Olivia and Elliot meet with Jack Lufton, a chemistry teacher at Susan’s old school. Jack tells them that he was dating Susan and discovered that he was HIV positive. He told Susan and she said that she had it too but didn’t think it was a big deal. Susan told Jack that her husband died during a safari accident in Africa. She told Jack that she was hurt too and received “an HIV infected blood transfusion.” The school was informed of her sickness and thought that she was a danger to the other students because of her belief that HIV is harmless. [Maybe this episode of Law & Order should be called “Wain’s World” after Dr. Mark Wainberg, a Canadian AIDS researcher who asserts that the constitutions of democratic countries should be amended to preclude free speech on AIDS. I think it’s interesting to note that Wainberg’s ideas about limiting discourse on AIDS place no limits on lying about AIDS, which is exactly what he did at a National Press Federation conference in July of 2007 when he told an international corp of journalists a completely fabricated story about me and my daughter. You really have to wonder why a top AIDS researcher who associates himself with “AIDS Truth” would resort to telling tall tales. ]

    Back at the station, Warner tells Greyleck that babies of HIV mothers have a 98 percent chance of being born healthy with proper precautions. [I think the claim is about being born HIV negative, not about being born healthy. Of course, Warner’s simplistic speech leaves out mention of the physical deformities, spontaneous abortions, mitochondrial toxicity, cancers, and other serious adverse events known to be caused by “proper precautions.”] Because of her actions they decide to charge Susan with criminal negligent homicide. They determine that the only way to prove that Lisa was killed by AIDS is to exhume her body.

    Warner examines Lisa’s body and finds enough evidence to show that she died from problems related to AIDS. [This is a complete reversal of reality. The biomedical evidence shows my daughter did not only not have the AIDS pneumonia she supposedly died from, as claimed by the LA County coroner’s office, but the evidence shows that she had no pneumonia of any kind. In fact, her lungs were so free of pneumonia that tissue slides of her lungs prepared by the LA County Coroner’s office have been used in three legal cases as evidence of what not having pneumonia looks like.] The police arrest Susan and Hutton for negligent homicide. [This is such an “AIDS Truth” fantasy, I can’t help but to imagine Dr. Wainberg and Dr. John P. Moore sitting in front of a TV together high-fiving each other as this ridiculous version of me and my doctor are arrested.]

    In court, Warner testifies about the effects of the HIV virus. She tells the court that HIV has been shown to exist beyond a shadow of a doubt [I wonder if it’s possible to get a copy of an electronmicrograph of a purified HIV isolate from Law & Order since no medical journal has made this available…] and has killed more that 25 million people since 1981 [Would that be the estimated total before or after UNAIDS and the World Health Organization admitted they had exaggerated their global estimates of HIV positivity, AIDS cases and AIDS deaths?]

    The defendant’s lawyer asks Warner if Lisa’s death may be the result of any other disease. Warner tells the court that she checked for signs of other diseases that show similar symptoms. She has eliminated the other causes and found that the only explainable remaining cause of death is the result of complications due to AIDS. [In the real world, this was not done by the LA County Coroner’s office in the case of my daughter, Eliza. Instead, they ignored the medical evidence pointing to probable causes in favor of announcing an impossible cause of death that made no medical sense, but a whole lot of headlines and a few bad TV shows.]

    Hutton is called to the stand and says that HIV is a retrovirus and that retroviruses are common in the human body. He states that no retrovirus has been shown to kill any human. He tells the jury that the evidence shown by the prosecutors is propaganda to create fear. Hutton tells the jury that HIV drugs are created to bring drug companies billions of dollars in profits. He says that the only people that are reported to have died from HIV are people who actually died from blood toxicity, people who are either gay or drug addicts. [A conspiracy theorist, denialist, snake oil pushing, baby murderer who’s also a homophobe? I think the writer’s are letting this Hutton character remain far too sympathetic. Some people–probably ones from Gambia–might still think he’s a good guy and could try to look him up on the internet and buy some of his AIDS bananas.]

    Greyleck asks Hutton if he has ever conducted any research or published a medical paper on HIV. He says he hasn’t because medical journals only exist to carry out the status quo. [Unlike Dueberg and many hundreds of scientists and doctors who challenge the HIV hypothesis and are published, regularly, in the medical literature.] Hutton tells the court that there are plenty of doctors out there who back up his theory. He tells the court that Warner has a medical bias because her people in Africa are dying in the masses. [There you go, now Hutton’s a racist, too. We needed that. Now everyone knows he’s bad.]

    Susan is later called to the stand. She tells the court that she found out that she was HIV positive when she was pregnant. She says that she was put on antiretrovirus drugs, but that it only made her sick. She says that a friend took her to Hutton and that he took her off the drugs and saved her life.

    Greyleck asks Susan why she did not give Lisa any anti-HIV drugs. Susan tells her that because the antiretroviral drugs almost killed her, she would not give it to her daughter. Greyleck introduces members of the audience that have survived because of taking ARV drugs. [These would be the people who appear on television shows to demonstrate the safety and efficacy of AIDS drugs but who do not appear in studies in the published medical literature. Maybe the problem with the studies not showing clinical health or survival benefits among HIV positive taking AIDS drugs could be overcome if researchers recruited patients from casting agencies instead of medical clinics.] She tells Susan that because she withheld treatment for Lisa, she pretty much killed her daughter. Susan begins to shake, has a seizure on the stand and falls to the floor. Warner examines her and calls out to call an ambulance.

    Susan is brought to the hospital and is told by Olivia that she has Toxoplasmosis, a brain disease that AIDS sufferers get. Susan tells her that she has been suffering from migraines and told Hutton about it, but he said that it was only temporary grief. Olivia asks her to help her before Hutton hurts anyone else. Susan tells her that Lisa is not the only child that died under Hutton’s care. Susan then flatlines and dies. [I can see Wainberg and Moore dancing about in a frenzy of delight until they remember it’s just a TV show and I’m still here…and now I have a podcast. Darn it. Can the constitution be rewritten to eliminate podcasts?] Susan’s son, Tommy [TV version of my son Charlie] is told that his mother is dead then goes into the room to say parting words.

    Later, Greyleck meets with Hutton and his lawyer. Elliot tells them that they have subpoenaed Hutton’s medical records and have found at least three kids dead under his care. [Nobody reported these sick and dying children? No parents, no teachers, no neighbors?] Greyleck tells Hutton to plead guilty, get his doctor’s license taken away and receive 5 years in jail. At first, Hutton refuses, but his attorney advises him to take the deal. Hutton tells the police that he will speak the truth from his prison cell.

    After the case, while reviewing Hutton’s medical files, Olivia finds that Susan was HIV positive before giving birth to Tommy. They decide to bring Tommy in to test. In the hospital, Tommy refuses to be tested and kicks Elliot in his ribs. Hutton’s lawyer comes in and tells Elliot that she is now representing Tommy and that he has the right to refuse treatment. [Apart from the fact that a test is not “treatment,” that older children have the right to determine their own medical care is a far cry from reality. This was exemplified recently by a teenager from Orange County who was taken from his mother’s custody after he refused chemotherapy for a cancer he didn’t have. His mother was actually jailed for trying to protect him from having treatment for the nonexistent cancer. How about an SVU episode on that?]

    After finding that Elliot has a couple broken ribs, Greyleck decides to challenge Tommy’s competency and compel him to get tested. At the competency trial, Tommy tells the court that he was taught about HIV and AIDS at school. He adds that his mother told him that there is no proof of AIDS. He came to the conclusion that what his mother was telling him makes sense.

    Greyleck asks if he knows about Holocaust and its deniers. Tommy says that he believes in the Holocaust and says that even though people deny the Holocaust, it doesn’t mean that they are right. Greyleck tells Tommy that his mother lied to him to feed her state of denial that she does not have a disease. [It’s not about the fact that no AIDS disease is directly caused by HIV, that all AID diseases existed prior to the advent of AIDS and all have known causes unrelated to HIV, it’s not about scientific inquiry, examining the lack of evidence for crucial claims such as the ability of tests to detect HIV infection, or the well founded and well expressed challenges to popular beliefs about AIDS for which there is a striking lack of scientific evidence, it’s just that denial thing.]

    The judge finds that Tommy is aware of the consequences of not getting tested. He finds that he is competent and that it would be infringing on his rights to force him to get tested. Greyleck moves to press charges of assualting Elliot. Elliot tells her that the whole point was to get him tested and that putting him in jail won’t accomplish that. Elliot tells her to drop the charges.

    After the case, Tommy thanks Elliot for dropping the charges. Elliot asks Tommy for a favor of visiting someone in the hospital. Tommy meets a kid named Kyle who has brain cancer. Kyle tells Tommy that his parents were Christian Scientists who didn’t believe in doctors, but instead believed in prayers. Kyle followed their belief until he became blind due to his illness. He spoke to his grandma who told him that God put doctors and treatments on Earth for people to use them. Afterwards, he sought treatment and got better to the point where his vision returned.

    Later Tommy decides to get tested for HIV. He tells Elliot that he was found positive. [My son, like my husband, tests HIV negative and didn’t kick anyone in the ribs. My daughter did not test positive by any reasonable or normal standards.]

    He says that he does not want to die. Elliot tells him that with treatment, he has whole his life ahead of him. [A whole life to monitor his liver enzymes, to hope to avoid organ failure, bone necrosis, neuropathy, facial wasting, and drug-induced cancers. A whole life to obey and adhere to medical and social dogma no so-called AIDS expert has thus far been willing to defend in a public dialogue with a qualified challenger present.]

    December 7, 2008 | 10:52 am
  2. Sadun Kal says:

    Another very interesting podcast, well done. Build those bridges. It would be great if a real, respectful, scientific debate can be organized.

    December 7, 2008 | 1:16 pm
  3. @nnie says:

    I’m in shock – or should that be denial? Just when one believes that this ‘war’ can’t possibly get any worse than it already is, The Industry comes up with yet another inescapable, deadly weapon.
    As for – decoding “Their numbers” it sounds like the lottery or maybe numerology.
    Then, regarding who best to select to receive a ‘death sentence’ from, I’d opt for a medical practitioner with renowned psychic abilities.
    So wish that EVERYONE would listen to this exceptional interview.

    December 9, 2008 | 12:25 am
  4. humanmilkpatentpending says:

    Eye-opening interview. Dr. Dee mentions an organization called Hollywood & Health. I believe this organization is the USC Annenberg Norman Lear Center’s Hollywood Health & Security. The funding for this program is provided by the CDC, Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and some other organizations. The purpose seems to be to “educate” us through TV programs.
    http://www.learcenter.org/html/projects/?cm=hhs
    Some might call this education, propaganda. Some call it social marketing. Nevertheless, it’s purpose is to promote a certain viewpoint. Only with this kind of social marketing, very few people are aware of how much their reality is being manipulated. Valerie W. McClain

    December 10, 2008 | 2:18 pm
  5. David says:

    Valerie;
    Very interesting. I checked out the Norman Lear Center link, and discovered a link to the National Cancer Institute (http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/entertainment-overview) which says “The National Cancer Institute (NCI) recognizes the power of popular entertainment in shaping the perceptions and practices of its viewers. Television shows, movies, and music not only command the attention of their audiences, but also reinforce existing behavior, demonstrate new behavior, and affect audience emotions.”
    And a link to the CDC also (http://www.cdc.gov/healthmarketing/) that defines “Health Marketing” as “A multidisciplinary practice that promotes the use of marketing research to educate, motivate and inform the public on health messages [through] A) An integration of the traditional marketing field with public health research, theory and practice; B) A complex framework that provides guidance for designing health interventions, campaigns, communications, and research projects; C) A broad range of strategies and techniques that can be used to create synergy among public health research, communication messages and health behaviors.”
    Or, more simply put, the medical establishment has recognized the brainwashing power of television.

    December 10, 2008 | 4:36 pm
  6. Mario C says:

    Also,
    Speaking of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, I am reminded of an Alex Jones interview with a lady who wished to remain anonymous but come on his show and speak about the foundation, as she was an insider. In the interview they called her “cynthia” to protect her identity.
    Now, I should say, I do not endorse Alex Jones, nor do I particularly like him, but it was an interesting interview for a few reasons.
    For anyone who is interested in it, I have posted the mp3 of the whole show that day on my site here:
    http://www.positivelyfalse.com/my_content/other_stuff.html

    The interview with Cynthia begins at 53:30
    They touch on HIV momentarily at around 104:00 – 107:00 where this lady who is an immunologist says “do not get the flu shot. I am an immunologist and I would NEVER get the flu shot.” I liked that part…
    The part that I find most interesting regarding HIV, and their misunderstanding of what they are talking about is at 118:00.
    Alex Jones mentions to cynthia that they have found studies showing little African girls who have never had sex before who are testing HIV positive. His conclusion is that these girls must be getting the HIV through vaccination programs, to which cynthia, very intelligently responds that these girls wouldn’t be getting ANY medical attention in the first place so that vaccine hypothesis is wrong. But then of course she proves her own lack of understanding by suggesting it must be in the food or sprayed in the air. Which doesn’t explain why tourists and the upper class individuals never get AIDS at the same rate, as well as plenty other problems.
    Nevertheless, the interview itself is interesting because there is some interesting insight into the Bill Gates Foundation and into FDA “regulation” and basically the state of medical science these days.

    December 11, 2008 | 12:21 am
  7. Gos says:

    It is now official — that L&O:SVU episode was funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, through a grant to the Norman Lear Center. Thanks to Valerie for bringing this to our attention.

    Here’s the New York Times article that confirms it:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/arts/television/02gates.html

    — Gos
    gos@nerosopeningact.com
    “Nobody here but us heretics…”

    April 8, 2009 | 12:25 pm
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